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RE: GLORIA A LOS HEROES DEL ATLANTICO SUR page 2Esto es una discusión · 18 respuestas RLunfa [nq:1]"RLunfa" ha scritto nel messaggio[/nq][nq:2]Mi mensaje está en español así que en ese idioma responderé. Intentaría hacerlo en italiano o en francés. Nunca en lengua pirata. RLunfa[/nq] [nq:1]Non ti pare, allora, di esagerare un po' con questa storia dei pirati?[/nq] Il colonialismo esiste ed allora gli pirati esiste. Non è vecchia né nuova. Salute, RLunfa
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Giampietro: "RLunfa" ha scritto nel messaggio [nq:1]Il colonialismo esiste ed allora gli pirati esiste. Non è vecchia né nuova.[/nq] Colonialismo inglese e anche argentino, allora, no? Ma non mi hai risposto sul fatto che sia giusto o meno lasciare agli abitanti delle Falkland-Malvinas il diritto di decidere da soli con chi andare, se con gli inglesi o con gli argentini. Votare per decidere, questa è democrazia, non credi? Ciao! Giampietro http://www.giampietrostocco.it
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RLunfa [nq:1]"RLunfa" ha scritto nel messaggio [nq:2]Il colonialismo esiste ed allora gli pirati esiste. Non è vecchia né nuova.[/nq] [nq:1]Colonialismo inglese e anche argentino, allora, no?[/nq] Tu sapere molto esempio di coloniale dalla Argentina? [nq:1]Ma non mi hai risposto sul fatto che sia giusto o meno lasciare agli abitanti delle Falkland-Malvinas il diritto di decidere da soli con chi andare, se congli inglesi o con gli argentini. Votare per decidere, questa è democrazia, non credi?[/nq] Eredi dei pirati. Il isola tu erano possesso per i militari. In qualsiasi caso dovere voto di argentini anche. RLunfa
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Giampietro: "RLunfa" ha scritto nel messaggio [nq:2]Colonialismo inglese e anche argentino, allora, no?[/nq] [nq:1]Tu sapere molto esempio di coloniale dalla Argentina?[/nq] L'operazione del 1982 alle Malvinas mi sa molto di coloniale... Non capisco cosa vuoi dire. Puoi anche scrivere in castellano, lo entiendo. Vuoi dire che devono votare gli argentini in Argentina per decidere quello che vogliono gli abitanti delle isole? Se vuoi dire questo, la democrazia è un'altra cosa.
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Giampietro: "usenet" (Email Removed) ha scritto nel messaggio [nq:1]I'm not sure to understand your question. What did you think it was ? Some strange secret conspiracy ?[/nq] No, I didn't mean that: I just meant I can't understand why this matter can't be peacefully decided by the Falkland inhabitants themselves. [nq:1]Well, of course Italy could raise claims to Corsica (and even more, to Niza). And it did so during Mussolini leadership.[/nq] Right, but it was a fascist government. A bit like the Argentinian in 1982... But I do not think the [nq:1]two situations could be compared. Franco-Italian borders are the result of a complicated history of border dispute among neighbours. The ... were never incorporated into UK territory. They were and remain a colony, while Corsica is part of the French territory.[/nq] If this is true, decolonization means that a former colony must be able to decide its future itself. The fact it is geographically much closer to Argentina means nothing. Exactly: what I mean is that, facing this dispute, if the matter is still warm, there should be a vote in the islands, whether to join Argentina or to remain British, or to form an independent State. I just meant that I am not surprised the Falkland people decided rather to stay British: on the other hand they had in a row first Peron, later the military junta, and later again Menem and finally the economical breakdown. [nq:2]Wait a minute: Italian irredentism was based on an undoubtably ... feel themselves to be more English than Argentinian. Or not?[/nq] [nq:1]Italian irredentism was as absurd as the Argentinian one. What on earth constitutes an "italian root" ?[/nq] A strong majority of people speaking Italian and recognizing themselves in the Italian culture inside of Trentino and Friuli-Venezia Giulia. The only place where Italians were a minority was Alto Adige or South Tirol, were the majority was of German language and culture. And this majority was discriminated under fascism, years later the annexion. I mean that if there was a good reason to claim Trentino and Friuli-Venezia Giulia to Italy - they were Italian lands - there was not in claiming South Tirol, that was German. You should remember that Italian [nq:1]unification came at the end of the XIXth century,[/nq] It ended actually after WWI... and that Italy had not [nq:1]been a single country before since the days of the Roman empire. So what would be the criterion to state that Trentino of Friuli wre of "undoubtably Italian root" ?[/nq] I explained that before: culture and language spoken by a large majority of people and, above all, their wish to join Italy. What would the borders of european countres [nq:1]become if everybody acted on that kind of nonsense ?[/nq] Nonsense? Where should Italian borders have been drawn, then? Do you mean Trentino and Friuli -Venezia Giulia should have stayed in the Habsburg Empire? And why not also Hungary, then? The fact they spoke Hungarian and they had a strong autonomy wish was therefore not enough in order to imagine they should be independent? As far as I can see, the Falkland Islands are a bit of land not far from Argentina where the majority of the people is of British culture and language. On my opinion, if the matter is still warm, they should be set in condition to decide themselves whether they want to remain inside of the UK as a colony or if they want to join Argentina, or if they want independence. Let them vote! Trentino and Friuli-Venezia Giulia undoubtably are (and were) Italian regions. Italy took arms and entered a war in order to take them, and this was in the spirit of the period, mistaken, imho, because it should have been more fair to let the people decide. But who would have let them in 1915? Irredentism in Italy is quite a different matter than you think: Irredentism meant a strong pro-Italian movement inside of territories that were Italian but still under a foreign monarchy. There were intellectuals who went in Austrian prison because of their openly speaking of joining Italy. People who were executed as traitors. Nothing of this kind happened in the Falkland, as far as I know. The whole seems to me a brute force disputation between the Argentinian and the British government, where the Falkland inhabitants' opinion has never been asked. The two situations can therefore in my humble opinion not be compared. Ciao! Giampietro http://www.giampietrostocco.it
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usenet: [nq:2]I'm not sure to understand your question. What did you think it was ? Some strange secret conspiracy ?[/nq][nq:1]No, I didn't mean that: I just meant I can't understand why this matter can't be peacefully decided by the Falkland inhabitants themselves.[/nq] Well, for the same reasons that no people has been called to decide by himself on such matters: because international relations are a matter of might, not of will. [nq:2]Well, of course Italy could raise claims to Corsica (and even more, to Niza). And it did so during Mussolini leadership.[/nq] [nq:1]Right, but it was a fascist government. A bit like the Argentinian in 1982...[/nq] But unlike the Argentinain govt. in 1982, Mussolini's govt. got considerable popular backing. [nq:1]Exactly: what I mean is that, facing this dispute, if the matter is still warm, there should be a vote in the islands, whether to join Argentina or to remain British, or to form an independent State.[/nq] Really ? But then, why not organise the same "vote" in Scotland, Ulster and Wales, for instance ? Why should self-determination be restricted to the islanders ? [nq:2]Italian irredentism was as absurd as the Argentinian one. What on earth constitutes an "italian root" ?[/nq] [nq:1]A strong majority of people speaking Italian and recognizing themselves in the Italian culture inside of Trentino and Friuli-Venezia Giulia. ... Friuli-Venezia Giulia to Italy - they were Italian lands - there was not in claiming South Tirol, that was German.[/nq] In other terms, italian irredentism claimed lands that even by your own admission had nothing to do with Italy. As for the "Italian speaking" lands, please remember that under that kind of reasoning Alsace would go to Germany (they speak a germanic dialect), Wales and Brittany would go to Ireland (they both speak Celtic tongues), and of course Ukraine and Bulgaria would be incorporated into Russia. [nq:2]and that Italy had not been a single country before ... that Trentino of Friuli wre of "undoubtably Italian root" ?[/nq] [nq:1]I explained that before: culture and language spoken by a large majority of people and, above all, their wish to join Italy.[/nq] As for language, remember that what we call "italian" is just the dialect of Tuscany. Other parts of the peninsula used to speak different languages. As for their "wish to join Italy", no referendum took place at the time so we do not know actually what the "irredent lands" inhabitants wanted. [nq:2]What would the borders of european countres become if everybody acted on that kind of nonsense ?[/nq] [nq:1]Nonsense?[/nq] Yes, nonsense... [nq:1]Where should Italian borders have been drawn, then? Do you mean Trentino and Friuli -Venezia Giulia should have stayed in ... Hungarian and they had a strong autonomy wish was therefore not enough in order to imagine they should be independent?[/nq] It is interesting to see that you have nothing but contempt for "argentinian irredentism" as concerns the Falklands, but you get heated up as soon as somebody suggests that "italian irredentism" is nonsense... [nq:1]As far as I can see, the Falkland Islands are a bit of land not far from Argentina where the majority of the people is of British culture and language.[/nq] That state of affaires owes quite a lot to the fact that the British deported all the argentinian population and replaced it with british people. Are you suggesting that had the austrian deported the whole population of Trentino or Friuli and replaced it with people from germanic origin, then it would have been all right for them to keep it ? [nq:1]On my opinion, if the matter is still warm, they should be set in condition to decide themselves whether they want to remain inside of the UK as a colony or if they want to join Argentina, or if they want independence. Let them vote![/nq] I is not that simple. Your reasoning will conclude that any power could occupy an island belonguing to another country, expell the population and replace it with its own citizens, then get them to vote to decide which country they would like to join... with an obvious result. It does not work that way. [nq:1]Trentino and Friuli-Venezia Giulia undoubtably are (and were) Italian regions.[/nq] You should always be suspicious of "undoubtably" statements. There is no reason why Trieste should be Italian, any more than Corsica should be French, Jersey british or Sarre german. [nq:1]Italy took arms and entered a war in order to take them, and this was in the spirit of the ... you think: Irredentism meant a strong pro-Italian movement inside of territories that were Italian but still under a foreign monarchy.[/nq] Yeah, yeah. It is one of those irregular verbs: I am a patriot, you are a nationalist, he is a bloody jingoist... [nq:1]There were intellectuals who went in Austrian prison because of their openly speaking of joining Italy. People who were executed as traitors.[/nq] Wonder what would have happened to any italian "intellectual" who openly spake about joining Austria. I bet the treatment would not have been very different. [nq:1]Nothing of this kind happened in the Falkland, as far as I know. The whole seems to me a brute force disputation between the Argentinian and the British government, where the Falkland inhabitants' opinion has never been asked.[/nq] The same goes for the "irredenta" land: I do not remember that any referendum took place in Friuli, for instance. How do you know what the Friulians wanted ? [nq:1]The two situations can therefore in my humble opinion not be compared.[/nq] I do not see why. Cheers Mario "the froggie"
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marika: [nq:1]for your information, Gibraltar recently had a referendum; see: http://www.gibnet.com [/nq] That is almost impossible to believe, if not for the "source" gf. Relationships are crazy enough without this kind of baggage. Why bother? [nq:1]QUOTE Because it has been so widely missquoted in the media, we reproduce here the actual wording on the 2002 ... Sovereignty" is a dead end." UNQUOTE I think that shows the degree of interest locally in becoming part of Spain.[/nq] Oh well, you enjoy some, you just live through a lot more. mk5000 "wine is dead" a horse and buggy driver
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Gurriato: [nq:1]Comparto absolutamente. Las Malvinas son argentinas.[/nq]Pues lo disimulan muy bien GURRIATEMBERG El chivateo es el refugio de los seres inferiores.
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RLunfa: [nq:2]Comparto absolutamente. Las Malvinas son argentinas.[/nq][nq:1]Pues lo disimulan muy bien[/nq] Lo disimulan pero lo son, al igual que vos disimulás que sos un gayego marica, resentido, fracasado, apátrida y perdido en el culo del mundo, que se queja de los rebotes de sus provocaciones mediante expresiones racistas de todo tipo contra los sudamericanos. Seguís ofreciendo recompensa por Gamarus? Encontraste a alguien alguna vez, gitano retardado? [nq:1]GURRIATEMBERG El chivateo es el refugio de los seres inferiores.[/nq] Y el tuyo, la concha de tu *** madre. Saludos internacionales, RLunfa
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